Dialogue on Relationship between a Teacher and the Student - An Enlightening Experience with J. Krishnamurthi

J.Krishnamurthi : An Enlightened Master (Who will be hereon refered as "K")

Renee Weber : Professor of philosophy at Rutgers University. (Refered as "RW")

Renee Weber : My general question has to do with what one might call a sense of all or nothing in what you say. Take, for example, teaching and education. One of the things you seem to say is that a teacher who isn’t completely free from fear, sorrow and all human problems, cannot really be a genuine teacher. That leaves the impression that one is either perfect or useless.

J.Krishnamurthi : I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

R.W. : Hopefully.

K. : Because if one says that until one is perfect, or whatever word one likes to use, and is free from certain states of mind, one cannot teach, that would be an impossible situation., wouldn’t it ?

RW : Yes

K : The student, or whoever is learning from you, will be lost. So is it possible for the educator to say, I am not free, you are not free, we are both conditioned, we have various forms of conditioning, let’s talk about it, let’s see if we can get free of it. That way you can break it up.

RW : Don’t you think the educator has at least to understand this process better than the student ?

K : Perhaps he has read more about it, has studied a little more.

RW : But he may not necessarily know how to do it better.

K : So in communicating with the student, or in communicating with with himself, the educator realizes that he is both the teacher and the student. Not that he has learnt, and then transmits, but rather the teacher is both educating and being educated. He is doing both.

RW : You are saying he is not an oracle who delivers. If he is open he is learning and teaching in the same time.

K : That’s really a good educator, not one who just says,”I know and I’ll tell you all about it”.

RW : Which means that such a person has to be, I suppose, free from faults such as pride.

K: Those are obvious things. Suppose I am an educator and am full of arrogance, vanity, ambition and all the rest of it, the usual nonsense that goes on in human beings. In talking with the student or with somebody I am learning, learning that I am arrogant and that the student is also arrogant in his way, so we begin to talk about it. And a discussion like that, if one is honest and really self-critical, self-aware, has tremendous possibilities.

RW : But you are saying that this process can take place between teacher and student even though neither of them is perfect ?

K : I wouldn’t use that word, I don’t know what perfection is – then we go off into something else. But if we could establish a relationship with the student or with each other in which an open dialogue takes place, a free, self-critical, self-aware dialogue of questioning, doubting, inquiring, then we are both learning, are both communing with each other’s point of view, with each other’s difficulties. So, in that way, if one really wants to go very deeply into the matter, you help each other.

RW : It’s not necessarily my view but suppose somebody says: that raises a problem because it may make the student feel that the teacher doesn’t know any more than he does, it may undercut his trust.

K: I would tell him, look, I have studied a bit more than you have. I have gone into, for instance, various Indian, Buddhist philosophies, I have studied, I know a little bit more about it.

RW: Exactly.

K : It doesn’t mean I am something extra-ordinary.

RW : So you feel if the teacher just very honestly…

K : That’s his function.

RW : ….speaks of the strengths and weaknesses: “I know more, but I don’t know everything”.

K : Say I am discussing Buddhism, for example or Aristotle or Plato – take Plato. You have studied more than I have. I haven’t studied Plato at all, but you have. So you say, look, I know a little more, naturally, otherwise I wouldn’t be your professor.

RW : Exactly, otherwise I shouldn’t be, it would be dishonest.

K : But as I haven’t read Plato or Aristotle or any of these people, I would say, look, I haven’t read them but I am willing to go into this very thoroughly, not from any particular point of view, not from Aristotle’s, Plato’s or the Buddhist point of view, but as a human being dealing with another human being, lets discuss these things: what life is about, what existence is for, whether there is justice at all in the world, which there isn’t, and so on.

RW: I think that makes it far clearer because at least under those circumstances, caring and self-critical adults would feel that they can teach others. Whereas if they have to be perfection itself, then who could do it ?

K: But there are very few people who are self-critical, honest with themselves, aware of what they think , whether they put their thoughts into words properly and so on. I mean one has to be tremendously honest in all this.

RW: What do you think makes one person capable of that and not another ? You say there are so few people who are totally honest. Why is that so ?

K: That’s a fact, some people are serious, some people are not.

RW: What quality does it take for a person to be very honest with himself ?

K: Not to be afraid of discovering what you are, not to be ashamed, not to be frightened to discover. Being able to say simply, this is what I am: I am lot of words, a lot of other people’s ideas, I am incapable of thinking anything for myself, I am always quoting, I am depending on the environment and pressure and this and that. Unless one is self-aware and self-critical you end up like a….

RW: So it takes at least the awareness and courage to say it.

K: I don’t like to use the word “courage”.

RW: What word would you use ?

K: A man who is really serious, who wants to investigate all this, is naturally fearless, he will say, all right, if I lose my job, I lose my job.

RW: But let’s say even without a outside judgement, like a job, don’t you think many people feel or fear that If I look all this straight in the face, even for myself, it will make the problem worse, not better ? That’s what they fear.

K: It would bring about much more uncertainty.

RW: That’s it and therefore…..

K: Face that uncertainty. Rather than saying, well, it will bring me greater uncertainty, greater problems, so I won’t do anything – Which is really a senseless existence.

RW: Well, you would probably say it is running away and hiding.

K: Yes, partly hiding.

RW: They might also reason – I have heard people say this – that the other thing will disintegrate me, I won’t be able to function as a sane person.

K: What you call sanity may be insanity. What is going on in the world is quite insane. If you want to fit into that insanity, all right, be one of the insane. But suppose, you don’t want to be insane, then you say sorry, I’m against the current or not going along with it.